Rate And Discuss 3.4: Daleks In Manhattan

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm with Si, in as far as I have an opinion on this - why would Martha automatically fancy the Doctor? You make some good points, Phil, but conversely, he's often patronising, has been terribly dismissive of her, and has put her in situations where she's nearly died several times. Plus he's a bit of a flash git, even by his own admission.

Plus, in terms of the series, we've been there with Rose haven't we, having a companion who fancies the Doctor? And thirdly, it's too early in the series for Martha to be hopelessly smitten (as her comment to Tallulah would suggest). Where is there for her to go from here?

HST, though, it hasn't yet started irritating me!!

[Si Hunt]

Yes, just because the Doctor is a decent, attractive chap doesn't mean Martha will automatically fall for him. Why can't he be just not her type??

Si.

[Trudi G]

Yes, just because the Doctor is a decent, attractive chap doesn't mean Martha will automatically fall for him. Why can't he be just not her type??

Si.

How could you not fancy him!

[Pip Madeley]

Well, it's a big thumbs up from me, I thought that was a really solid episode with lots to like. As mentioned by Darren, Tennant has really got to grips with the part of the Doctor, and because Helen Raynor's characterisation of him removed the 'daftness', we were given the same level of greatness we got from last year's Cybermen story. When he's doing it straight, for me, he's up there with Tom and Patrick as an all-time favourite Doctor. Freema continues to impress as Martha, though once again she's been sidelined a bit so I don't feel I know her as well as I did Rose. Still, plenty of time for that. I still don't buy the whole "she loves him" thing though, as Si said, is there really a need? They've done it with Rose, it just feels like they're retreading old ground.

Onto the story, it makes perfect sense that the last few remaining Daleks are trying to find a way of survival, although the division between them about purity was a bit odd, surely they would have all understood the plan and agreed on what they were working towards, but I guess it did give us a good scene (I think the division will continue into the next episode) and reminded me of the way they always bickered in the old series. The Daleks themselves got some great lines, though the wiggly eyestalk was more than a bit distracting. Mr. Diagoras wasn't a nice man, but nevertheless I felt sorry for him as he was forced to take part in the experiment - the moment when Sec enveloped him was quite a scary image, which I'm sure will stay with some kids for a long time. All the other guest cast were alright too, though the accents grated a little.

The production values continue to amaze me. The effects were largely impressive, though I admit I was never for a second convinced Tennant and Agyeman were actually in New York, for all the talent of the Mill, green screen work is always too obvious. Nevertheless all the matte shots were gorgeous, and coupled with the great Hooverville location work, there was real authenticity about it all. The direction was superb, Doctor Who should be glad to have someone as talented as James Strong onside, it was filmic stuff, particularly when we panned from the sewers, up the drawing of the Empire State Building and up to the top, an excellent piece of work. Also, the Daleks in the sewers was iconic stuff - seeing the shadow first was spooky.

The cliffhanger was very good but sadly expected (boo Radio Times boo!)... was it just me or did anyone else think of Scaroth? I was expecting it to speak more like a Dalek, but there you go. There is a negative though, the pig slaves, they're just not for me. I can see the idea behind them but they just looked a bit silly, and very much aimed at the kids (who's expecting a pig slave action figure in the shops?). Robomen would've made much more sense to me. But overall, it felt like proper 'old school' Doctor Who, the fact that it was the opening part helped there... I miss those cliffhangers... but a great episode, 8/10 from me.

[Ralph]

There's no fathomable reason why the Daleks combined us with pigs really is there? If they're going to have to stretch credibility that much to invent new aliens, I'd rather them just have been Ogrons. Or why not say the pig men were a different species?

Si.

I agree the Ogrons looked far better and it's a good point, why make humans pigs? Weird.

I am a human D-a-l-e-k from New Yoik

[P-Bal]

Helen LaRayner said she'd watched old Dalek stories, and I thought the sewery bits had a smell of Revelation about them.

I didn't actually like DIM very much to be honest. I didn't dislke it, but it felt a bit empty. The idea of the Daleks employing a human aide was nice, but slightly curtailed really.

Martha continues to be an absolute shining light unto the masses though!

I gave it a 4 I think. Which is mean, but I'm old so bite me.

[Jonno]

The Ogrons were wiped out when used as the first wave of pawns in the Time War - the Daleks sending them in first against the Time Lords.

[Pip Madeley]

The Ogrons were wiped out when used as the first wave of pawns in the Time War - the Daleks sending them in first against the Time Lords.

Really?

I'd have liked to have seen Flavia trying to fight an Ogron.

[Jonno]

They knocked up a few De-Mat guns. Worked well enough against Sontarans!

[Pip Madeley]

Indeed, but the Sontarans weren't much of a match though, they can't even handle getting past the Doctor's plastic furniture.

[Rob McCow]

Jonno is writing the Time War. It's happening here and now, people!

[WhiteCrow]

My favourite bit was Dalek Thay talking to Mr.Diagoras, peering over New York. That was really interesting. A Dalek moment of self-doubt?

I generally loved the relationship between the Daleks and Diagoras. Like I've said a general critisism of late is that Daleks have been reduced to indestructable killing machines, and I always felt they had some more to them than this.

This meant they seemed to be talking a bit more than usual, and in fact I wonder if this is the first episode ever they've appeared in without ever saying the word "Exterminate" - that'll get you searching!

My son loved it, and has now watched it 3 times (even I've only managed it twice).

I found the pig slaves in the tunnels really menacing - the way they were lit reminded me of Napoleon from Animal Farm.

Anyway exceeded it's "Daleks Takes Manhattan meets Pigs In Space" tagline!

[Andrew Curnow]

It's a very good pic (which I don't hope you mind my resizing) - something I didn't know until I looked online today was that 'only' 5 workers died during the construction of the ESB. I would have assumed, given the height & danger & scant H&S laws of the time, that it would have been a great many more than that.

[Pip Madeley]

Funnily enough, that man in the photo kinda looks like a pig slave

(BTW nice work on the resizing there Curnow )

[Kaybee Bailey]

Another good fun episode, just kind of drifted away and enjoyed it. I'm not too sure about the dalek/human thing though, it seemed to be attempting to play on a fear (humanity becoming monster, body harvesting, however you want to see it) that I don't think is really strong enough to resonate with me. The daleks don't need to change radically to still be up to date. But, two parts, see how it pans out.

[Andrew Curnow]

Funnily enough, that man in the photo kinda looks like a pig slave

I didn't like to say that, but... you've got a point, Pip, he's certainly no beauty queen.

[Steven Ford]

I really liked that epiosde - the dalek in the lift moment was wonderful. Despite the fact that we all knew it was going to be a Dalek - the circular bit on the lift doors mimicking the dalek eyestalk worked well too.

Although, as you've all said, the Pigmen were a bit logically redundant, the moment when they all appear slowly and gradually approach the Doctor (who seems to genuinely not know what to do) was very well done.

It was quite padded in the middle - especially with the Doctor's slow discovery of what that green blobby thing was - quite irritating since i) we already knew Daleks were there and ii) it was quite clearly a Dalek type mutant - he should have known that really, has he learnt nothing from Ressurection of the Daleks?

No, I think this was one of the better Dalek stories - although it did seem a bit like Revelation of the Daleks in reverse - effectively turning Daleks into humans rather than humans into Daleks. The bit with the human helper - in true The Invasion style worked very well, I thought. Having said that, the greedy, power-hungry man being taken advantage of by Daleks/Cybermen has been done a lot before. I would quite like to see something like Evil of the Daleks where the humans help because the Daleks have their daughter or something (obviously not quite the same). But that is the Daleks really taking advantage of the nature of humans.

Presumably the daleks have some bigger plan involving the State Building - for a minute I was hoping for the Empire State Building to be turned into a giant dalek... but then I decided that was silly.

[Pip Madeley]

It was quite padded in the middle - especially with the Doctor's slow discovery of what that green blobby thing was

I thought it was Reuben the Rutan.

[Andrew Curnow]

Being a bit of an anorak, there were a few moments which reminded me of other stories - the chained-up pig in the sewers (why was he chained up though, or was it just a trap?) reminded me of the Lukoser; and the workmen up on the top of the ESB reminded me of the Space Guys fitting bombs to the top of the Exxilon city.

As I say, bit of an anorak...

[WhiteCrow]

Presumably the daleks have some bigger plan involving the State Building - for a minute I was hoping for the Empire State Building to be turned into a giant dalek... but then I decided that was silly.

So far I'm thinking the plan is a bit Ghostbustery - turning the Empire State into a giant evil Dalek transmitter of their transgenic code.

The Doctor will reverse mutate the Dalek jelly, spray it inside the Statue of Liberty which will come alive to kick the Empire States butt.

Lunchbreaks 1930s style ...





And even then workmen would often be napping on the job ...

[Jason Thompson]

I'll hold off rating the episode until I can rate both. However, a couple of comments so far:

Martha fancies the Doctor. Yawn. Been there, done that. Making it unrequited this time doesn't make it any more interesting.

What was all that guff with the jellyfish and rigging up a DNA scanner with spotlights and capacitors? It served no purpose, as has already been observed, because the Doctor then goes down a sewer and spots a Dalek. In fact, that scene would work perfectly well as written without incorporating the jellyfish stuff at all.

Was anyone else expecting the Dalek in the sewer doing the brain scans to notice Martha's non-contemporary origin? And the Doctor just waltzing into the procession and NOT being noticed by the Dalek bringing up the rear strained credulity a bit.

Loved the Dalek looking out over New York and expressing grudging admiration for the human race.

How did all the hardware, the Dalek mutant AND Mr Diagoras fit inside Sec's casing?!?!?

So far it looks interesting enough for me to want to know what happens in part 2, even if the hybrid at the end seemed very weak indeed. Let's see what happens....

[Si Hunt]

How did all the hardware, the Dalek mutant AND Mr Diagoras fit inside Sec's casing?!?!?

If John Scott Martin can fit comfortably inside a Dalek along with all the gun and sucker arm operating bits, room for a sandwich and a tricycle and (I'm sure if he'd ever tried) a tiny Dalek mutant, I'm sure it can be done.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Martha fancies the Doctor. Yawn. Been there, done that. Making it unrequited this time doesn't make it any more interesting.

I'm afraid that while the show is being broadcast on Saturday night at 7pm and drawing in millions of viewers, that's something we'll all have to put up with. I'm pretty sure that a proportion of the audience watch it for the companion/Doctor relationship and find the sci-fi stuff gets in the way.

Fortunately, unlike with Rose, their relationship is incidental rather than driving the stories.

[Perry Vale]

And the Doctor just waltzing into the procession and NOT being noticed by the Dalek bringing up the rear strained credulity a bit.....

Yes, all four of us watching thought that.......

Oh dear, where to start? Longest episode ever? Seemed it. Worst accents in Doctor Who ever? We thought so. I've skimmed through this thread, and I'm totally amazed no-one seems to have mentioned it. I suppose RTD thought they were "marvellous".

A few nice touches, via the Daleks, but most of it really dragged, imo. And the plot made very little sense, which Torchwood episode did she write?

Worst episode of the series so far, and one of the worst since it returned. I won't rate until the story is completed, but I'd have to be feeling very generous to give this 6/10, and will give it another watching first.....

[Si Hunt]

She wrote "Ghost Machine" I believe.

I didn't think the accents were too bad. You kind of expect the 1930's to be represented a bit flamboyantly, a bit playing up to the cliche, in the same way that we saw Victorian London in "Talons" and a lovable prostitute said "Ooh I can't wait to put up me plates of meat dearie, and never mind that Mister Chin Chin. Savvy!". No-one minded that.

Si.