Rate And Discuss 3.11: Utopia

[Dirk Gently]

I can see people in some quarters (Mention no names Perry) using this as a reason to refute the canonisity (is that a word? Oh well) of the TV Movie.

[Wayne]

canonisity (is that a word? Oh well)

No, but 'canonicity' might be.

[Carol Baynes]

HELP! Confused...who is the Master?

Hope Pip's link helped, but I have to wonder- would the episode make as much sense if we didn't know who The Master was beforehand? Presumably it'll appeal in a different way to a casual viewer, especially on ewho never saw the old series.

[Carol Baynes]

Hello- Oh, a new voice! Helllooo!

Superb! It was basically an episode to reintroduce the Master, so the refugee story was implemented as a back story like the Autons in Rose. The last ten minutes were probably the most exciting in new Who for a long time. And Graeme Harper's terrific direction was in evidence.

9 out of 10

Wow, even Darren likes it!

[sugartongs]

Hope Pip's link helped, but I have to wonder- would the episode make as much sense if we didn't know who The Master was beforehand? Presumably it'll appeal in a different way to a casual viewer, especially on ewho never saw the old series.

But then casual viewers might wonder why that man was travelling through time in a blue box - you can't explain everything all the time in the hope of pleasing casual viewers.

who was that man clinging to the blue box? who is this rose? why did his hand grow back? you could go mad explaining.

[Pip Madeley]

Eh??? I don't see how there can be any (not yet anyway) since all we know is that this old bloke is actually the Master - how can that single, solitary fact contradict anything?

I think they were referring to the problem that by the TV Movie, the Master was no longer able to regenerate, only take over the bodies of his poor victims, that's why he was after the Doctor's remaining regenerations. Now he seems able to regenerate with ease (he even chooses the moment when it happens). Of course, the TVM *is* canon (we saw the Eighth Doctor's face in the Doctor's drawings)... it's all in the air, really.

But then casual viewers might wonder why that man was travelling through time in a blue box - you can't explain everything all the time in the hope of pleasing casual viewers.

who was that man clinging to the blue box? who is this rose? why did his hand grow back? you could go mad explaining.

I agree - the programme is now in its third series, it's got a dedicated fanbase who'll understand all the continuity of this revival, they should feel able to let a few things go by without explanation... but then the flashbacks don't do too much harm. As for the Master, it's put clearly that this is a dangerous Time Lord, an old foe, the Doctor's equal, so new viewers won't be too alienated, because they'll be seeing him through the eyes of Martha and Jack...

[Si Hunt]

The first half of the episode was fast and funny

We may have watched a different episode here at HaRpi towers!

I could be right but apart from Planet of Spiders, I believe this is the only time we have seen a propper on screen regeneration of another Time Lord.

It's like saying I've never, ever had roast beef apart from that time I had roast beef.

Si.

[Pip Madeley]

So what did HaRpi think of the episode?

[P-Bal]

C'mon folks, get with the programme!

It took thirty minutes of pre-credit sequence to get to the interesting bit!

Pointy-toothed Annie Lennox people?!? Who gives a donkey dong?!?

I find the mass phliadelphia pantied reaction very surprising!

[Andrew Curnow]

I think they were referring to the problem that by the TV Movie, the Master was no longer able to regenerate, only take over the bodies of his poor victims, that's why he was after the Doctor's remaining regenerations. Now he seems able to regenerate with ease (he even chooses the moment when it happens). Of course, the TVM *is* canon (we saw the Eighth Doctor's face in the Doctor's drawings)... it's all in the air, really.

We-ell yes, I suppose - but I don't (personally) call that a continuity problem, in that there are any number of possible explanations (the Timelords in The5Drs offer him a complete new life cycle for a start; or he could have preyed on the victims of the Time War, nicking a few 'cycles' prior to disappearing). I would never lose sleep over that - if the Master had said something like, "Here I am in a new body, facing the sixth incarnation of the Doctor" then that would be a continuity problem!!

[Pip Madeley]

We-ell yes, I suppose - but I don't (personally) call that a continuity problem, in that there are any number of possible explanations (the Timelords in The5Drs offer him a complete new life cycle for a start; or he could have preyed on the victims of the Time War, nicking a few 'cycles' prior to disappearing). I would never lose sleep over that

Me neither, that's why I said I don't care, I'm just glad he's back.

[Doctor Vendetta]

...he could have preyed on the victims of the Time War, nicking a few 'cycles' prior to disappearing.

Yep, that works for me.

[Larry]

just watched it again and this time i did notice Delgado's voice.

[Rob McCow]

We may have watched a different episode here at HaRpi towers!

Aye, we know you don't like the episodes where they go to space!

Captain Jack's dialogue was superb throughout, it really seems that meeting the Doctor again has given him a new joy in life! I hope something happens to make him really miserable for Torchwood next year. His scene with the Doctor in the radiation room was outstanding and would have given this episode high marks from me alone!

would the episode make as much sense if we didn't know who The Master was beforehand?

I think it would work better if you didn't know about the Master from beforehand. I don't think it's essential that the general public watches The King's Demons, Timeflight and Mark of The Rani. In fact, much as I love those stories, they'd be better off not watching them.

It was all there in Derek Jacobi's performance, as well as John Simmsies. The shot where we look into Yana's eyes tells us all we need to know about the Master - He's an evil, evil git!

[Rob McCow]

...he could have preyed on the victims of the Time War, nicking a few 'cycles' prior to disappearing.

Stealing bikes as well!

The list of the Master's crimes grows ever greater....

[Milky Tears]

I demand that McCow adds more sssssssssssssssssss to Simmsies. It doesn't look right!

[Si Hunt]

So what did HaRpi think of the episode?

Well you'll have to check the Vervoid in the oncoming week to read my full thoughts! But briefly, I got swept up by the thrilling climax like everyone else, though I'm left feeling really flat that a great, older Master in Derek Jacobi was surrendered for an unsinister wise-cracking John Sim. What a waste!

My personal thoughts are that this would be a better episode as Part 1 of 3, making out it was standalone left it looking a bit short-changed as it started really slowly, like a bad Season 2 episode of "Blakes 7". If this had been 1/3 to start with, we might have been saying "great start!" instead of noting that all the bad stuff with the toothy people didn't really go anywhere.

But I loved all the stuff with the watch and the bit where Jacobi was the Master - thrilling!

Aye, we know you don't like the episodes where they go to space!

Oddly enough, I'm a bigger campaigner of the "let's do alien worlds" viewpoint than anyone, it's just when they do them they don't seem to do them very well. This looked very much like "The Satan Pit" with a bloke with a painted face and a night-time quarry. They seem to think there are two extremes - that either they have to spend a billion pounds rendering a convincing totally alien environment, or that they just have a gravel pit at night and don't bother.

Si.

[SiHart]

My personal thoughts are that this would be a better episode as Part 1 of 3, making out it was standalone left it looking a bit short-changed as it started really slowly, like a bad Season 2 episode of "Blakes 7". If this had been 1/3 to start with, we might have been saying "great start!" instead of noting that all the bad stuff with the toothy people didn't really go anywhere.

I find that very bizarre. I don't see what difference it makes myself, because by the time you get to the end you realise the story will be continuing, so... Surely expectations would have been insane if they'd said that the last three episodes were a three parter? We'd probably be complaining about what a slow start the story got off to!

Si xx

[Andrew Curnow]

I agree - except that I don't think it did start particularly slowly. Before the titles has appeared we'd had the return of Jack, a trip further into the future than ever, a man clinging onto a police box, and some B7 space rat types snarling and talking about "humans coming". It didn't feel slow to me at all, otherwise I think I'd have rumbled their 'it's a three-parter' game that bit earlier.

Plus... loved the hermit dialogue, only just remembered that bit!!

[Doctor Vendetta]

Plus... loved the hermit dialogue, only just remembered that bit!!

"...we meet up every ten years."

[Andrew Curnow]

"A hermit... with friends" and "It's good fun. For a hermit..." had us hooting as well.

[Si Hunt]

I agree - except that I don't think it did start particularly slowly. Before the titles has appeared we'd had the return of Jack, a trip further into the future than ever, a man clinging onto a police box, and some B7 space rat types snarling and talking about "humans coming". It didn't feel slow to me at all, otherwise I think I'd have rumbled their 'it's a three-parter' game that bit earlier.

That WAS all before the titles, and then after the titles it seemed to take an age to get going, that's what I meant. The first scene in the Professor's lab went on a bit, we thought.

I'm going to wind up defending myself as if I hated the episode I can tell, but I didn't. I actually quite enjoyed it, I think I'm just confused now as to whether I'm supposed to be judging it on its own or as the start of a longer story. If the latter, then obviously I'm not dissing it yet because, y'know, we might find out next week if they got to Utopia and what that was, and who the toothy tribe were etc.... with an Earthbound trailer though, I do fear we won't!! But we'll see.

I did find Pip's assertion that the Doctor wasn't in the trailer so as not to ruin the cliffhanger odd... it hasn't stopped them all the other times!!

Si.

[Si Hunt]

By the way, I gave it 7/10 like 20% of the voters so far. I was going for 6 but it gets the benefit of the doubt as part of a patchy season.



Si.

[SiHart]

who the toothy tribe were

But they did say! They're what humas are becoming, a race that eat each other and live to hunt- that's why they have the sharp teeth, to tear the flesh.

Or did I dream that explanation up?

Si xx

[Carol Baynes]

But then casual viewers might wonder why that man was travelling through time in a blue box - you can't explain everything all the time in the hope of pleasing casual viewers.

who was that man clinging to the blue box? who is this rose? why did his hand grow back? you could go mad explaining.

I agree, and I think you misunderstand me a bit there. The show has always been like this, with no introductory spiel in the titles or anything. You just get into it.
My point is about The Master in particular. He's The Doctor's greatest single adversary and Kathy didn't know who he was, so I'm interested how this was as an introduction for her. Did his revelation carry as much weight for Kathy? Did she get the idea that this guy is known to the Doctor from a long time back and is an 'old character'? Just curious as I can't view it that way for obvious reasons! I'm also intrigued that she had never heard of The Master, as he's probably the most famous reoccuring villian after the Daleks and cybermen, and Kathy being a Dr. Who fan and all...is Kathy a new series watcher only?