Rate And Discuss 3.13: Last Of The Time Lords

[SiHart]

One of the things I disliked most about the episode was the 'turning back of time' to make everything okay. When I saw the 'one year later' bit at the start I thought 'Great, some lasting consequences!'.

I think there was, for Martha's family at least. I don't think, seriously, they could have left the Earth in the state it would have been in at the end of the episode without resetting it... it would mean that every story set int he presnt day afterwards would have to deal with that, and really, there's not the money to constantly do an devestated Earth all the time.

Si xx

[Jason Thompson]

"Just some time experiments gone awry"? You can't have it both ways - either the Earth of the Doctor Who Universe is accepting of time experiments and a London full of Dinosaurs, or it isn't! By that argument, surely humans in the New Series would be more accepting of the Slitheen invasion due to this advanced space program. Hmmm?

No, because a space program would have to be unbelievably advanced to have encountered aliens from beyond the solar system. Britain went to Mars. In space terms that's the equivalent of popping next door to borrow a cup of sugar (did anyone actually ever do that? how did it become a cliche?!). Time experiments are local, on the Earth, and so are dinosaurs. Sarah Jane is investigating time research in that very story!

For goodness sake Jason, what's the point in inventing a different excuse for each old series invasion, just to try and concince us that they are somehow more convincing of anything in the new series?

I'm not trying to pass off every invasion, merely attempting to illustrate that they were mostly localised (on a global scale) and therefore could be explained away without too much bother. Now they're all over the world in seconds, and we get to see foreign news clips to show the global impact, then everyone forgets it or dismisses it as a hoax! Here's the problem. Life is not going on, life is being re-written. I'd understand if we saw some indication of the general populace being accepting of aliens, but we get newspaper headlines screaming hoax or welsh idiots convincing their girlfriends that the Cybermen were some form of terrorist attack, and the world wraps itself in denial so they can all be equally surprised and aghast next time it happens, apart from those individuals the plot requires to have some knowledge of aliens.

[Edited to add

Looking back over the show, I can only find four stories in the whole series that showed a roughly contemporary invasion attempt that is explicity worldwide in scope. The Tenth Plnet, for most witnesses, probably left them somewhat bemused: Mondas appears, Cybermen arrive, and then they all keel over and die! The Invasion happened while the entire population ws unconscious. Spearhead From Space saw window dummies coming to life. Only a few people know that it's an alien controlling them. The Claws Of Axos involves worlwide distribution of axonite and then it all disappears, while only a handful of people actually saw Axos itself. Every other invasion was highly localised, and few people actually saw the aliens. OK, looking back the Skarasen was seen by loads, but it's the Loch Ness Monster? Who actually saw the Zygons? UNIT and co, and that's about it.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Oh that kid was a Blue Peter competition winner was he/she? Explains a lot.

Another thing I didn't like... Martha's mum being kept prisoner and humiliated for a year by a man she watched try to kill her daugher, a man who she watched slaughter vast swathes of humanity and lay waste to the Earth, a man she swore to kill when she got a chance. Then she gets a perfect chance... but can't go through with it because she's a "good" person. B****cks. Anyone other than a total pacifist saint-like character would have shot him in the face and kicked his lifeless body until she broke some bones in her foot. I really do hate it when people write these situations and always show good people as being incapable of pulling the trigger, even under extreeeeeeme stress, as if that would somehow invalidate their goodness. It's a very black and white and not particularly believable view of human nature in my opinion.

[Pip Madeley]

It's a bloody kid's show!

What do you want, a gore-fest where Francine shoots the Master in the head? That's a good example for the children watching.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

But life does go on. We've seen it in the UK after the terrorist attacks, that after a while life does kind of go back to normal, despuite their being world changing events. I mean, what can they do? How can show the effect that an invasion would have on a whole world- it simply isn't feasible. All I can suggest is that the Governments are better prepared, and certainly this was the case when they destroyed the Racnoss ship in The Runaway Bride...

Si xx

I don't know about how they affected you, but to me the terrorist attacks were just something I saw on the news. Nasty as they were they only killed about 50 people and happened (as I always suspected such things probably would) in a large capital city in which I don't live. I didn't know anyone who died in them, or know anyone who knew someone who was died or injured. I know that I'm much more likely to die being killed in a traffic accident or having a freak accident with a sponge around the home than I am to even be in the same AREA as a terrorist attack going off. It wasn't really world-changing at all. Now hordes of alien death machines patrolling the streets of every town and city in every country all over the world and butchering indiscriminately... that would probably have more of an impact on most people.

[Martin Penny]

This Doctor sure loves giving people second chances though doesn't he?

[Zbigniev Hamson]

It's a bloody kid's show!

What do you want, a gore-fest where Francine shoots the Master in the head? That's a good example for the children watching.

Yes. Obviously I'm requesting a bloodthirst murdering scene

Or possibly just cut the scene out then? It didn't add anything other than to show how "good" Martha's mum is, which we didn't really need to be told anyway, and to do it in a rather cliched and crap way.

[Martin Penny]

I think there was, for Martha's family at least. I don't think, seriously, they could have left the Earth in the state it would have been in at the end of the episode without resetting it... it would mean that every story set int he presnt day afterwards would have to deal with that, and really, there's not the money to constantly do an devestated Earth all the time.

Si xx

That's true, and for me, Marthas family being devestated and her reasons for leaving the Doctor were the best parts of the episode.
I just prefer it when shows deal with the consequences of huge events, but I suppose in Doctor Who that's not really appropriate.

[Dirk Gently]

Yes. Obviously I'm requesting a bloodthirst murdering scene

That makes you appear to be a rather sick person doesn't it?

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Or sarcarstic

[Si Hunt]

mostly localised (on a global scale)

Say what now?

Every other invasion was highly localised, and few people actually saw the aliens. OK, looking back the Skarasen was seen by loads, but it's the Loch Ness Monster? Who actually saw the Zygons? UNIT and co, and that's about it.

Every invasion was HIGHLY localised... apart from the bloody Loch ness Monster trawling over England! And the London Underground being evacuated and filled with a web-like fungus! And London being filled with Dinosaurs! And London being over-run with living plastic dummies! Do you think London is so insignificant that it would be invaded by aliens and the rest of the world wouldn't notice!

Si.

[WhiteCrow]

Here's something which might cause some fuss. Surely for a typical Master story, the alien menace he'd allied with should have turned on even him?

Or will some people say once again it's RTD breaking all the rules ...

[SiHart]

Or possibly just cut the scene out then? It didn't add anything other than to show how "good" Martha's mum is, which we didn't really need to be told anyway, and to do it in a rather cliched and crap way.

Well they won't see it overseas, as that's one of the scenes that will be cut when it's edited down to 45 minutes for other countries, according to RTD.

Si xx

[Andrew Curnow]

Interesting...

I'm glad I'm not alone in loving the 'super old' Doctor. I thought it was a marvellous effect, and just heartbreaking to see our hero at his lowest ever ebb. Is it just because I'm not a "Lord of the Rings" fan that I enjoyed this aspect of the show? People seem to hate it just because he looks like Gollum or whatever it is.

Also, no-one has commented on the one truly striking moment in the story - when the Master kicks the Doctor in the face! I found that really disturbing, perhaps even a step too far. At that moment the Master went from being a villain I loved to hate to one I just hated, which wasn't a nice feeling. But a very powerful moment.

I just had to reference Si's post from the previous page, because I thought the same. The aging make-up was absolutely superb, as well as the 'aged' acting that went with it; and the image of the Doctor having endured daily humiliation, both physical and mental, for a whole year while just biding his time, is one that really disturbed me on Saturday. And I think, to praise up the writing a bit, that those images, along with seeing the Master kicking the Doctor, really helped paint the Master as 'a big baddie' for those who don't know the old series, so that the whole audience is kind of on a level playing-field by the time the Doctor forgives him.

It's always nice to have a diversity of opinions, but personally I don't care about the credibility or otherwise of a world where alien invasions are becoming the norm - I just really thoroughly enjoyed it, and was genuinely relieved when Tennant DIDN'T regenerate at the end.

[Carol Baynes]

I do get where Jason is coming from, because the old series retained an element of mystery (for want of a btter word). the events depicte din the series are undoubtedly ficticious and fantastical, but there's the idea that they might actually be happening out there somewhere. You'd never know. I like that.
I don't really want huge spaceships crashing into Big Ben; much prefer something more subtle and insidious going on.

A global invasion that the billions know about is very different to most old Who scenarios. Not saying it's a worse direction, but I was relieved when the 'paradox' was undone, as it stopped the series completely going off into a changed Earth. I think it's important the contemporary Earth in "Doctor Who" is as near to ours as possible; I think that works better.

[The Secretive Bus]

I think Jason's argument is quite good, and it is true that most alien invasions in Who are small and are localised. The times when it's more difficult to explain away are spread quite thinly across the series - the Skarasen is a case in point, though that was a single monster that arguably wasn't seen again. People will go on about "Wow, we saw a monster!"... but that arguably doesn't have the same lasting consequences as an army of Cybermen bursting into every house down your road. The Auton invasion is a better parallel, because that was a bunch of monsters storming around and gunning people down. (Though one could argue that most people wouldn't assume them to be aliens/monsters, more like an army of thugs - an Auton gunning somebody down is less "alien" than a flying Dalek shooting a highly visible deathray) The Auton invasion is one of those invasions that would be difficult to cover up, certainly. But then the next story we had the Silurians... but the only people who witness them and are alive by the end of the story are UNIT (who deal with this thing regularly now) and the staff of the base, who will probably be rounded up and made to sign official secrets act stuff - and if they tell their families, who's going to believe them? You've got that plague, but who's going to equate a contagious disease with a race of lizard men in Devesham (or wherever)? Equally, who on Earth is going to think that an attack on London was perpetrated by robot Yeti?

Most of the alien invasions in old Who ran along more secretive lines; highly visible Auton invasions and Skarasen sightings are the exception, not the norm. The New Series has featured a lot of rather-difficult-to-explain-away events, that are either witnessed by entire populations or else ought to have huge consequences that aren't mentioned. I think we ought to be seeing consequences of it, some recognition that humanity's coming to terms with this sort of thing. People always went on about The Faceless Ones: "Why has nobody bar Samantha Briggs noticed that their loved ones are disappearing and never coming back?" It poked a hole in the credibility of the story. Nobody seems to make such accusations against the new series. Perhaps New Who gets by because it's generally entertaining whereas The Faceless Ones was so boring it wasn't worth arguing about, but the criticism stands.

The other problem I have with it is that massive alien invasions that are actually succeeding are too difficult for Doctor Who to defeat. I know it sounds silly. But hear me out. The Doctor can easily blow up an alien spearhead, but when aliens are worldwide what solution can you come up with? So far it's been pull a lever and suck them up through a door in Canary Wharf, or make sure it never happened via a handy paradox machine. The larger the threat the more difficult the solution is going to be, and the solutions generally seem too easy compared to the threat - you need to feel satisfied. There has to be enough sacrifice, enough sweat and tears to equal the threat being posed. When the Doctor resorts to blowing up the aliens it's not that interesting but you arguably don't expect a "Wow, fantastic!" solution to a threat posed by 3 aliens in a small ship; when something truly interesting does happen, it's a bonus. But when the Doctor's up against a billion Daleks we need something a bit more meaty. Rose turning into a god to defeat an entire army of Daleks was rightly criticised; the solution seemed too handy, not difficult enough. It killed the Doctor, certainly, but it still didn't feel right.

Doctor Who works well on a small scale, but whenever it's made larger it opens problems of resolution satisfaction. Even The Invasion falls prey to this; there are no lasting consequences as everybody's unconscious, so credibility is maintained, but it's a bit of a cop-out when an entire invading force is neutralised by blowing up a small hut - followed by 5 minutes of people peering intently at monitors and waiting for the spaceships to blow up. Perhaps that's why the writer hardly even references the Invasion itself and is far more interested in the human shenanigans of Vaughan and lots of people nipping back and forth from the same three buildings. I've never found The Invasion very satisfying because the invading Cybermen do nothing and they're repelled far too swiftly after an 8 episode build up. Again, I say that Doctor Who works well within certain boundaries and when you go beyond them you better have a good story with a cracking resolution to make it work. If you can't think of a better solution to a worldwide invading force (in the process of invading) than to flick a switch or to turn into a demi-god to sort them out, then don't write yourself such a massive problem. Most of us loved Blink for damn good reasons, ingenious plotting and a fun solution being two of them. The Empty Doctor Dances has a bigger problem but deals with it in a good way carefully layered into the plot that feels satisfying.

So that's my problem with all these continuous massive threats in New Who: they stretch credibility when taking the New Series as a whole, and they don't lend themselves well to satisfying resolutions.

[Si Hunt]

But surely in mentioning "The Faceless Ones" you've given at least one example where the old series DID stretch credibility. And you're really just doing what Jason did earlier, listing every old series invasion that was no less noticable than Big Ben being destroyed or Cybermen marching through China, and making up some excuse for it. "People wouldn't think Autons were monsters" etc. etc (because an army of something terrestrial marches through shop windows firing energy bolts from its hands). What's the point? Has there ever been such a long discussion in order to prove something that doesn't really matter?

Time to move on from this?

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Here's something which might cause some fuss. Surely for a typical Master story, the alien menace he'd allied with should have turned on even him?

I know! What a let-down!

There's something I like as well. The Master uses the humans from the future as a weapon, twisting their hopes and fears into madness. The Doctor uses the hopes of the present day humans, not as a weapon, but as a defence against the Master. I think that's a lovely inversion that just about defines the two characters.

Even more controversial, the Master's plan MADE SENSE AND NEARLY WORKED!!!! Choke it down, Davison!

[Carol Baynes]

Time to probably piss you off now, because I've come into this discussion late! ...but they're right to say that a bunch of Autons is far easier to explain than a global invasionof Cybermen. I'm a bit on the fence on this one I suppose. I think the old series had an understanding about how it would prsent such things. There would be an idea that these things were covered up and kept as secret as possible, and aliens were outside of most people's experience. It's far scarier to present modern day Earth as close to possible as it is, so the alien element is far more effective in my opinion. I don't really want "Independence day" every week! I think the new series likes to present a mdoern day epic scenario were millions are obviously threatened by a very visible menace, which was very rare in the old series. It presumably makes the modern hisotry element in the new series almost an 'alternative Earth', and I'm not sure that's such a great idea. In the old days you'd have UNIT or whoever fighting very small scale invasions, as mentioned, which were easily covered up. Even in "The faceless ones" we're not really in the same style of storytelling as the new series- there always felt like there was a 'get out clause'.

It's an interesting stylistic difference, and one of the few things I've not liked about the new WHo since it came back. From the moment No. 10 blew up I think! Saying that, I did like all the epic season finales.

But less is more strange and mysterious- and I like that.

[Carol Baynes]

Also, no-one has commented on the one truly striking moment in the story - when the Master kicks the Doctor in the face! I found that really disturbing, perhaps even a step too far. At that moment the Master went from being a villain I loved to hate to one I just hated, which wasn't a nice feeling. But a very powerful moment.

Si.

Si, I think I did mention that. A great evil moment, for the reasons you say. The Master just went almost too far. He can destroy a planet's people and that's obviously horrendous, but that smack was a very personal touch- and came across as complete bastard behaviour.

[The Secretive Bus]

But surely in mentioning "The Faceless Ones" you've given at least one example where the old series DID stretch credibility.

And I stated how the old series did stretch credibility in other cases also. I'm not going to be blind and say the old series was perfect and the most logically and believably plotted TV show ever, because it wasn't. Still, if you don't even care about what I'm saying (which, on the evidence of what you say below, you don't) then I suppose it's silly of me to even bother trying to engage in debate. I even neatly summarised why it's an issue with me in the last paragraph.

Has there ever been such a long discussion in order to prove something that doesn't really matter?

Time to move on from this?

Si.

Um, charming. Rather than be a ranting "RTD RAPED MY CHILDHOOD" type I try to constructively argue aspects of the new series I don't like. Aspects that affect my enjoyment of the show and indeed can prevent me from enjoying it. And because you don't agree or you couldn't care less, you just say "Time to move on."

There are various things I could say to retaliate but there'd really be no point. If you don't care about what I have to say then ignore it, instead of being so bloody rude.

Real smooth, Si.

[Si Hunt]

That's grossly unfair David, and ignores the fact that Jason has been hammering home the exact same points all afternoon, that's what I was referring to, not just your post - I'm just tired of the discussion that's all.

Anyway, whatever. I've had enough too.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

Every invasion was HIGHLY localised... apart from the bloody Loch ness Monster trawling over England!

Oh come on! It swam underwater the whole way to london, and was seen once for about ten seconds. Who's going to connect that with an alien invasion? Who saw the Zygons except UNIT people?

And the London Underground being evacuated and filled with a web-like fungus!

Where are the aliens? Who saw them?

And London being filled with Dinosaurs!

Where are the aliens?

And London being over-run with living plastic dummies!

Who's going to connect plastic dummies coming to life with alien intelligences?

Do you think London is so insignificant that it would be invaded by aliens and the rest of the world wouldn't notice!

No, of course not. But who saw any aliens that were undeniably aliens in those events? In Invasion Of The Dinosaurs Sarah Jane, not a particularly special journalist beyond her association with UNIT, is writing articles about experiments in time manipulation for a mass produced magazine. If someone reads about those and then sees dinosaurs, who's going to think aliens? A weird mist and fungal infestation in the unerground? Again, who's going to thnk 'oh, we're being invaded by an evil alien intelligence using robot yeti'?Yes, something weird is happening, but it's not a global alien invasion, nor are images of aliens broadcast across the globe, nor do aliens appear all over the world, nor assassinate public figures or glide ostentatiously over London in a city-sized spaceship. London is pretty small in global terms, however much we may like to think it isn't.

Yes, the old series stretched credibility, but never to this degree. it's easier to dismiss an event that only affected one city, especially if no-one actually sees anything definitively alien in the event.

That said, it's nice that at least Martha's family remeber those events, so there is still some emotional impact from the Master's activities.

I'd love to see a scene set in a pub, with two blokes recalling the Cybermen invasion of 2007 and comparing it to the invasion of 1986. 'Aye, that were a weird one. These great big weird men arrived, declared they controlled the world, then ten minutes later they all just fell over and shrivelled up. What happened last year? These great big metal men turned up, declared they ran the world, then ten minutes later they all sort of zipped up into the air and disappeared. They're not great at this invading lark, are they?'

[Jason Thompson]

That's grossly unfair David, and ignores the fact that Jason has been hammering home the exact same points all afternoon, that's what I was referring to, not just your post - I'm just tired of the discussion that's all.

Anyway, whatever. I've had enough too.

Si.

Respectfully, Si, if you are tired of the discussion then just stop replying to it. Don't try to get the last word by rattling off a reply, then declaring you're tired of the conversation so we should forget it.

You'll no doubt be pleased to know that is the last I will be saying on the matter, since I am in Malta for the next week or so and expect this thread to have moved on by the time I get back.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Rtd Raped My Childhood