ABSOLUTE PROOF that ALL Big Finish media IS canon!

[shada pavlova]

Nope. No progenation of the species, saving it from becoming totally extinct. None of that at all.

Oh wait, you haven't seen the uncut version of Black Orchid, have you? The one the cliffhanger at the end of part one is all those old men with no clothes on crowd around Nyssa and Ann with terrible grins...

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I don't think typing Q. E. D. after everything is going to convince anyone you know your reasoning is rather tenuous to say the least.

If the BF crew managed to find a televisual gap to insert their audios in, then Time Crash could just be shoved in the same gap without in any way verifying the BF audios. And if there WAS no televisual gap where the 5th Doctor travelled alone then that just puts Time Crash and the BFs on equally shaky footing, but still without them being mutually reliant on each other. And that's even assuming the 5th Doctor was DEFINITELY alone on his TARDIS at the time, which there is barely any real evidence for. And on top of all this, I didn't even think it was definite that Time Crash is canonical anyway?

My advice, don't become a lawyer. Or if you do, don't even endup defending me please

[Paul Monk]

I have a saying which I made up a few seconds ago that goes like this "If you have your own canon you're free to fire at and destroy whatever you like. Including somebody else's canon"

[Rob McCow]

"If you have your own canon you're free to fire at and destroy whatever you like. Including somebody else's canon"

Didn't Cardinal Wolsey come up with that idea?

[Antony Cox]

It's all balls, anyway. Canon balls, in fact.

[Stuart Wallis]

Any more jokes like that and you're fired!

[shada pavlova]

Took me rather a long time, but I HAVE ANOTHER THEORY!

As you can probably guess, it involves the ten doctors flashback thingummybob in The Next Doctor.

Basically, since the Daleks have images of the Eighth Doctor on file, it means that they must have encountered him at least once. Since this did not happen on screen, this cracks a rather large hole in TV series purists' theories.

So I propose that The Time of the Daleks and/or Terror Firma must be canonised, to fill that particular gap in continuity.

And now to pre-empt any counter-measures:

You lot: "Oh, but surely the Daleks met the 8th doctor in the Time War!"

Me: "True. But given the state the Daleks were in by the end of the Time War, I strongly doubt that they were in any position to waste time making careful notes about what the Doctor looked like this time around."

You lot: "Ah, but what about the Dalek Emperor? Surely he would have kept records!"

Me: "Maybe, but don't forget, the Dalek Emperor and his fleet only existed hundreds of thousands of years in the future, and were definitely not around in 2006, so would not have had any contact (since the War)with the Cult of Skaro or their millions of Daleks held in stasis within the Void, which is where the Cybermen got their 8th Doctor info from."

You lot: "Oh dang. Looks like you got us good!"

Me: "Yes. Yes I did. "

[Logo Polish]

You are just taking the piss with all this, aren't you?

But if you are being serious, then no, all it suggests is that they could have met off-screen. Nothing strange about that, since he only had one story onscreen anyway. Proves nothing about the circumstances of any meeting they could have had. Doesn't even prove that they did meet, for that matter, it could just come from information read directly from the Doctor's mind in a story that takes place after The Next Doctor.

[Si Hunt]

So I propose that The Time of the Daleks and/or Terror Firma must be canonised, to fill that particular gap in continuity.

It's the old "K9 and Company" thing isn't it? People used to say that "counted" because of "The Five Doctors". But something non-official happening to neatly explain something official does not lend it official status does it? Otherwise every bit of fanwank filling in gaps between Story A and Story B would be "canon".

Si.

[shada pavlova]

If there exists a gap in continuity in undeniably canon media, that left unchecked would create a gaping hole or paradox in established facts, then it seems only fair to let someone have a crack at filling the gap. And if the filling is done by an officially licensed party, then so much the better! Or if it's by an adoring fan, then so long as his or her explanation does not create any other problems with continuity, there's no real reason why it shouldn't be welcomed with open arms. To adhere to "TV Series Purism" is to embrace hypocrisy and stubborness in its most wretched form.

It's tantamount to racism, that's what it is.

[Andrew Curnow]

Is this the human condition of madness, leader?

[Si Hunt]

If there exists a gap in continuity in undeniably canon media, that left unchecked would create a gaping hole or paradox in established facts, then it seems only fair to let someone have a crack at filling the gap.

So what you're saying is, an episode's eligibility to having "official" status depends on its content? Surely you can't pick and choose what is "proper" Doctor Who by how well it fits in?

Si.

[Logo Polish]

It's tantamount to racism, that's what it is.

I think that equating anything discussed on this subject to an evil like that which has ruined lives is sick in the extreme. I'm sure Nelson Mandela would be impressed at being told that an opinion about Who continuity was identical to what he's been fighting against all his life.

What you seem to be having trouble comprehending here is that nobody minds if you like to think of the books, etc, as having taken place off-screen between stories, it's the way you appear to be carrying on as if no-one else should be allowed to have that choice that pisses people off.

If you're going to start talking like this, then I think you deserve having it pointed it to you that your attitude is basically immature and selfish. Immature because you don't seem to be able to cope with the concept of anyone not sharing your preferences and selfish because you seem eager to hunt for ways of making it impossible for anyone to disagree with you on the subject.

What happens, in fictional terms, between the TV stories? Whatever you like, as far as I'm concerned. Insisting that you've got to incorporate this or that spin-off range within there is trying to close off options for other people, which is something you've no right to do. Your attitude makes about as much sense as me desperately insisting everyone should regard the old annual stories as part of the TV continuity would be. These are separate projects made for different markets, in different media, so the individual is free to decide on the relationships between them for themselves, if they care enough, and that's how it should be.

[Si Hunt]

You're both wrong. It isn't racism, just because, well, it isn't.

But you can't go saying it's "sick"to use the word "racism" in a Who context because the word is not reserved for discussion of its extreme implications. I'm not slurring the memory of anyone killed in a violent conflict by saying that "Attack of the Cybermen" is violent am I? Because it is.

Likewise Who could be racist. Attitudes have changed. The word isn't owned by those who have fallen under crimes it describes.

Si.

[Logo Polish]

You're both wrong. It isn't racism, just because, well, it isn't.

But you can't go saying it's "sick"to use the word "racism" in a Who context because the word is not reserved for discussion of its extreme implications.

That isn't what I meant. I was objecting to the attempt at stirring up an emotional reaction by using it to describe people's motives for holding an opinion on something that's nothing to do with race, the something in this instance being 'canonicity' rather than Doctor Who itself. That's what I would consider to be trivialising racism.

Likewise Who could be racist. Attitudes have changed. The word isn't owned by those who have fallen under crimes it describes.

Yes, Who could be, as could any series. But I wasn't meaning to claim otherwise. I should probably have made it more clear that by 'this subject' I was talking about opinions on the relative continuity of books and audios etc to the series, not the morals or ethics to be found within any of the stories, of any media.

[Andrew Curnow]

I suspect (or at least, dear God I hope) that Shada P wasn't being serious with his post, in which case we've probably given it too much air time already. For future reference, I'd suggest he uses some kind of emoticon to make sure any readers know it.

If, on the other hand, SP did mean every word then I think he needs to re-read what he's written and get some kind of perspective. Many of us, I'm sure, have been a bit obsessive over things at that age, but at least in my day we didn't have the opportunity to broadcast it to the world. Type - think - post, that's my advice.

Put another way, if it was a genuinely serious post, SP, go and check out the 'Absurdity' threads in Centre of Leisure and then give us one good reason why your post doesn't belong alongside the mix of drivel, phlegm, madness and actually pretty grim hatred, that resides there.