Rate & Discuss 4.17: The End Of Time, Part One

[Larry]

and like socks is so easy to lose a glove or forget where you left it.

[Stuart Wallis]

I'm finding myself joining the malcontents, I'm afraid. Agreeing with a number of the negative points - once more unto the bandwaggon who found that the episode didn't get going quickly enough, for example. Not sure what to make of the Master's powers either. Actually I found him in his most manic phase very annoying, and I couldn't get round how he managed to survive the prison explosion in the first place. The Ood segment, infact the first half was drawn out too much, as was the world being turned into the Master bit. I take it we're going to get an explanation as to why Donna didn't turn into him, BTW?

The only bits I did like were the return of the Time Lords, if only because the Doctor's feelings of loneliness and being the last of his kind are beginning to grate now; and the cafe scene - "Merry Christmas and look at the pair of us".

Only a 2/10. Part 2 can't get much less interesting.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

My 3 is starting to feel rather generous

[Si Hunt]

I take it we're going to get an explanation as to why Donna didn't turn into him, BTW?

Because she's the DoctorDonna so she hasn't got a totally human brain. The Infinity Gate has been programmed to 'human' and she doesn't come under that category any more.

Si.

[shada pavlova]

Don't you mean Immortality Gate?

[Si Hunt]

Potato Potarto!

Si. :mobile

[Larry]

3 hours to go and we have a new Doctor i'm really quite excited..

[Rob McCow]

Quick Lowdown, out of interest:

That's Six people at 5/10 or less, Eight at 6 or 7 and Seventeen giving it between 8 and 10.

Although some people weren't happy with it, the majority still seem to have given it a pretty high score.

I think the hype for this one hasn't worked in it's favour. It would have been a fabulous mid-season two parter, but I think we've had better from some of our season finales.

I may revise this opinion in two hours time!

[Si Hunt]

It was the exact opposite of Stolen Earth/Journey's End for me - this time the opening part was a bit plodding but it picked up for the second part.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Just up to speed on this thread - the episode itsself was a mixed bag.

The good

* David Tennants scene with Wilf when he says some of the things he did went a bit wrong was superb.

The bad

* David Tennant appearing late to see the Ood, and being quite flippant about taking his time to get there. Odd when last we saw him in Waters of Mars he was filled with grief. To be honest that bit made me feel "thank God he's going".
* The Master resurrection was pure Voldemort. Only we don't do magic in Doctor Who do we? It was "advanced science".
* Pretty much everything about the Master and him possessing the population was little more than a Matrix rip-off.
* I'm concerned Predident Obama was played by Andy Peters [Which means Ed the Duck might be somewhere on his cabinet]

I think the scene where the Doctor gets mugged by the OAPs I think was possibly a comment on the madness at the stage door when Tennant did Hamlet do you think?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

With the TARDIS damaged do you think Matt Smith might be stuck on Earth pretty much like in Pertwees years, only perhaps working as a jobbing journalist until he can repair his TARDIS?

[Si Hunt]

People have said that, but other than the TARDIS being bashed up, which is surely just an excuse for a new console room, is there any evidence? We know there's a new interior set coming - would they bother to build one at all if their planning on not using the TARDIS next year?

Obama being Pres was a very odd move, simply because over the last five years we've seen that the US President and UK Prime Minister in the Doctor Who world is different to ours... until now. Why the sudden switch I wonder?

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Well it was a black US President, so it was going to be hard to disguise. The dead Prime Minister in Aliens of London did look a bit like Tony Blair ...

When the Doctor mentioned he got married was he refering to River Dance or to Queen Bess?

[Logo Polish]

People have said that, but other than the TARDIS being bashed up, which is surely just an excuse for a new console room, is there any evidence? We know there's a new interior set coming - would they bother to build one at all if their planning on not using the TARDIS next year?

There are stories due for the forthcoming season which are set in the 1580s, 1940s, 1990s, 2010s and 2020s at least, I understand.

[Si Hunt]

You obviously know more Spoilers than I do! Wow! Although thinking about it, I'd heard that Gatis was writing a historical. One they didn't use in a previous season, so that makes sense.

When the Doctor mentioned he got married was he refering to River Dance or to Queen Bess?

Queen Bess, as we then got a crass line implying that, thanks to the Doctor, she was no longer known as the Virgin Queen. A hero for the younger generation there.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

So he decided to prove he was the Timelord Victorious, and could now change previously fixed points in time ... by knocking up Good Queen Bess (well I assume he alone would know if she was good)???

[Logo Polish]

I think the best way to treat the Queen Bess line is as a silly joke... you've still got the option of reading it different ways... that the whole thing was just a made up bit of flannel... or that he meant a different nickname... or that the "got married" is a reference to someone else and the reference to the Queen is a separate anecdote... or that he accidentally walked in and caught her in bed with someone else... etc.

[Si Hunt]

I think it went too far. It wasn't a suggestion, it was reasonably explicit. Which leads to the unpleasant conclusion that the Doctor is a slag who not only has some parentage over our Royal Family, but is the sort of man who nips through time getting people pregnant then legging it to avoid the responsibility. Then joking about it afterwards. That's so far removed from the concept of the character as to be completely unacceptable for me.

I mean, he didn't hint. He actually said it. An awful, awful scene that.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I mean, he didn't hint. He actually said it. An awful, awful scene that.

Indeed - it just felt hugely wrong, and I couldn't help but thinking it was perhaps good this was his last story cos the Doctor in that scene was tiresome.

[Logo Polish]

I think it went too far. It wasn't a suggestion, it was reasonably explicit. Which leads to the unpleasant conclusion that the Doctor is a slag who not only has some parentage over our Royal Family, but is the sort of man who nips through time getting people pregnant then legging it to avoid the responsibility. Then joking about it afterwards. That's so far removed from the concept of the character as to be completely unacceptable for me.

I mean, he didn't hint. He actually said it. An awful, awful scene that.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the authorial intent, and I didn't like it either, but all he actually did say was that she couldn't use her nickname anymore (and there wouldn't be any parentage involved, incidentally, as Elizabeth I didn't have any children) - anything else would have to be inferred - and he didn't even necessarily specify that it was her he'd married. And like I say, it's not as if he's never told jokey lies before. It's just a question of strategy, for want of a better word. I'm not defending the piece of dialogue, I wouldn't have included it either - I'm just saying the option is there to dismiss it on various grounds, independent of whatever the writer may have intended, and that I think it's better, in the end, to do that in whichever way you please, rather than dwell on it and let it bother you.

[Si Hunt]

It's true. The whole scene bothered me, and I shouldn't let it. As someone else said, it left me glad this Doctor was about to go! Thankfully the remainder of the episodes didn't continue this trend and I ended up as sad as everyone else to see him go.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

An interesting take on it would be it was another (the last case) of him saying "I'm always alright me" when he isn't. Dramatically it's probably there to counterpoint when he kind of lets himself be vulnerable when telling Wilf he's done a few things which have gone wrong - which was by far my favourite scene of the whole 2009 season, and certainly something I thought was incredibly powerful and could relate to.

[Perry Vale]

Obama being Pres was a very odd move

Not as odd as having him make a live Christmas Day speech about the economy!