Rate and Discuss: Flesh and Stone

[Wayne]

It'll never catch on...

A bit like the images that i use for my sig-pic on a couple of other forums.
Look quick before Aunty Mary comes along with her magic fairy dust.

[Jason Thompson]

It kept me engaged for the duration, which is the first criterion for any good episode. If you can walk out halfway through it's a bad sign. I couldn't turn away, always wanting to see what was going to happen next. Good pace, good character moments.

The Angels became lesser as the episode progressed. Their imability to move when being looked at is now apparently an instinctive thing, in which case they should be able to override it and merrily wander around killing at will. Neither are any of them being especially careful about covering their eyes as they were in Blink, in case they could see each other.

Matt Smith IS the Doctor. I love his portrayal, and his range was demonstrated nicely in tonight's episode, shouting at River, tears welling as he moved away from the Bishop knowing that the second he turned away the man would die, his reassuring of Amy before he left her, and rambling as he thinks on his feet. Great stuff.

Visually impressive, though the 'it's a forest in the middle of a spaceship, isn't that cool' bit seemed a little too much like a scriptwriter going 'see what i did there' at the audience. (From a scientific standpoint it is not a bad idea either, and the use of plants to make oxygen has been considered for real space projects: they would want to light the forest better though, or else the plants will use up their oxygen as fast as they make it: the fact that plants use oxygen as well as making it is often forgotten in the same way that carbon dioxide poisoning is forgotten when characters are sealed in and collapse from oxygen starvation)

I hated the 'Amy wanting a quick shag before her wedding' scene. We seem to have a quota of Doctor/companion kisses in the new series, and so far the only one that didn't make me groan was the one in The Unicorn and the Wasp, where it was done specifically to shock the Doctor. Is it a natural and human thing to do? Very much so. Does that mean it has to be included? No. Amy might have really needed the loo in the forest, which would be very natural and human, but we don't need to see that. Steven Moffatt has already written a show about sex and relationships. It was called Coupling, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. This is Doctor Who, and it managed for a very long time without worrying about that aspect of life. I just find it the least interesting and most boring thing to possibly include in a show with such a wide range of possibilities. Still, I suppose at least the Doctor didn't reciprocate.

I am also tired of the whole foreshadowing thing every bloody year. The Pandorica will open. Time is being unwritten. Oh look, Amy's wedding is taking place on the transmission date of episode 13.... Yawn.

So a well-executed episode, but not without flaws and not one I feel will repay repeated viewing.

[Jason Thompson]

I felt like a bit of a hypocrite for being fine with the Angels getting sucked into the crack. Wasn't it just a typical RTD cop out ending? It took eight minutes of pasta boiling to figure out the difference. The Angels were sucked into the crack because the gravity on the ship shut down. It shut down because - as we've seen over the last two episodes - the Angels were draining its power away. It makes sense that gravity would be the second to last thing the ship switched off (air being the last). So it wasn't an RTD flipping a hitherto unseen switch and saving the day ending - it was all there, it was all logical and that's why it worked.

Precisely! That's how you arrange such an ending. The Angels were not sucked into the crack, the gravity faled because of their own actions, and the effect of that was established right in the first two minutes when the Doctor points it out.

The only two issues I had with it are:

1: It is an unfortunate case of the enemy losing because they did something really stupid, namely draining the power and causing the gravity to be shut down.

2: The timing was VERY convenient. The Doctor didn't actually do anything; the gravity just happened to fail at precisely the right time for the Angels to have caught up and explained the need to plug the crack....

[Wayne]

[SiHart]

Reason: LOL! It's lightened up loads around here hasn't it?

Ahh Wayne, you nice to see you haven't changed.

Si xx

[Darren]

Wayne? Hello again.

rather than Tennant who was like the pissed up twat shouting in the street than you just want to call the police to get him to move on

[Darren]

The Doctor lost his jacket when the Angels almost caught him... then later when he left Amy with the Clerics he still didn't have his jacket... a moment later he pops back and tells her to remember what he said to her when she was 7 - and he's wearing his jacket! In the next scene the jacket's gone again... a simple continuity error or is that the Doctor from the future?

Some thoughts.

I think that's the Doctor from the past. He knew about the crack and Amy's connection since episode 1 (he clearly saw the crack on his monitor). When he returned to her two years later, he hadn't been to the moon, he'd been to see Amy in the forest.

Possibly

Or he is from the future and he's telling her to remember what he told her when she was 7 because both their lives are going to depend on it.

There are a couple of other things. I'm pretty sure the clock in Amy's room jumped from 11:59 PM to 12:00 PM - an entire twelve hours.

If time is being unwritten, is SM undoing all the events that have happened in the past four years (from mankinds point of view?)

[Si Hunt]

Did everyone spot the explanation as to how the Cyberking towered over London in "The Next Doctor" and it was never recorded in history?

Si.

[Larry]

Well I loved it.

(and welcome back Dave!)

Si xx

watched it round Si's house and we were all pretty much of the same opinion - Moffat, just seems to get better and better with these sort of episodes. Once again Mat and Karren shone, and have to say Mat's outbursts of anger are so unexpected and brilliantly done . The reveal that River, killed some one is iintriguing and I no doubt am not the only one who instanly thought it was the Doctor she kills. Loved the ending in Amy's bedroom the comady was played just right - overall an excellent episode and my highest score of the season so far at 9/10.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Eek!

Well I loved the Weeping Angels from Blink, and I really enjoyed River Song in the Library story.

So I'm kind of surprised this did nothing really for me - an awful 3/10.

I don't really want to go into too much detail on this, as it's obvious a lot of people have enjoyed it (I ended up watching both episodes back to back). Which is fine, but I'm just finding I just can't get into this season at all - eek since when did I become a Doctor Who naysayer!!!

Anyway one of the huge problems was River Song - in the library she was quite charming. However in this I found her annoying. To be honest I found her written pretty much like when you read a Mary Sue in fan fiction. And you kind of expect a bit better from Moffat. Add to that the whole kind of feeling like she's being turned into Kate from Lost.

And then there's the Weeping Angels. Used so brilliantly in one episode story Blink. I don't think they really stood up for a second two part story. Indeed in Blink they're stopped by looking at each other - something they clearly do in this story, so their entire logic has changed (that's kind of the norm for Doctor Who I know). But I could have done with the elements which were straight out lifted from the Ring too!

Maybe I'm just getting a bit too media savvy, but I'm finding the wholesale lifting of elements from other things really starting to grate me - although that extends into RTDs era too.

Sorry to be a bah-humbug people, but I have tried to keep it brief at least!

[Si Hunt]

Hasn't Doctor Who lifted elements/paid homage to other things in just about every story in it's 47 year history?

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Hasn't Doctor Who lifted elements/paid homage to other things in just about every story in it's 47 year history?

Si.

I do know where you're coming from Si, and yeah it's hard to be original and not accused of lifting something as I know all too well. And as Morrisey said, "there's always someone, somewhere, with a big nose, who knows" ... although he wasn't talking about Who fans at the time.

And indeed sometimes it's deliberate - and called "homage". I know I loved Spaced the comedy series, and it was pretty much 12 episodes of homage.

Homage can be fun and funny. But it can also leave me feeling quite cold at times. It's like listening to the base line of Ice Ice Baby, and knowing it belongs really within Under Pressure - it's just that someone went out to steal it cos they were too lazy to produce their own music ...

And yet other people will be just fine with it, and listen to Under Pressure going "hey cool, they're using Ice Ice Baby's baseline".

[Perry Vale]

Did everyone spot the explanation as to how the Cyberking towered over London in "The Next Doctor" and it was never recorded in history?

Si.

Not sure what you mean, are you suggesting the Cybermen are something to do with the crack?

I loved it, again. All of it. Moffat back to his best, after the rather unsatisfying Silence In The Library. The plot hangs together completely, and he sticks to the classic rule of "if there's a gun in the final scene"....

Well directed, again, although I did find the whole 'Doctor leaving Amy alone' part felt rather clumsy in it's presentation.

And then that last scene. I had no idea it was coming. Maybe it's because I keep away from spoilers more than under RTD (has it been 'leaked' in the tabloids?). And it completely worked, unlike all those RTD snoggy moments. Very well played by them both, and unlike many others I felt it fitted the character.

I think many people have missed the point of the scene. Amy doesn't just want 'a quick shag', and it's not just that they've grown to be close friends. Not only had Amy almost died, she had almost ceased to exist! That would surely make you question the briefness of life.

9/10

[Si Hunt]

Not sure what you mean, are you suggesting the Cybermen are something to do with the crack?

The Cyber King was specifically mentioned in the episode. I think that it must have grated on Moffatt that Russell had such an epic event happen in history that no-one remembered - so he's used the crack as a means to explaining how the Cyber King isn't part of our historical fact. I don't think it (or the Cybermen) will have any more significance, it's just a nice bit of retconning.

Si.

[Jamie McCrimmon]

I enjoyed the story, but not the bit where Amy came onto him. I'm not sure what to make of her character, is she still even thinking of marrying this poor guy Rory, despite what she was hoping to do with the Doctor? It's all a bit torrid and doesn't belong in Doctor Who, television has plenty of relationship dramas and soaps without this.

That said, the Weeping Angels were brilliant again, and I loved the oxygen factory, what a fantastic idea. Matt Smith is so good as the Doctor, and I hope we see a lot more of River Song, she's really growing on me.

[Si Hunt]

I don't think Amy really wants to marry Rory. She's been talked into it, and agreed because there was nothing better, and now she's met this amazing bloke and realising she sort of likes him.

People do mad things like that, and it doesn't neccessarily make them bad people. I'm sure it's quite indicative of the liberal and often headstring/heart first attitude that a lot of young women have towards romance these days.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

I don't think Amy really wants to marry Rory. She's been talked into it, and agreed because there was nothing better, and now she's met this amazing bloke and realising she sort of likes him.

Not only that, she'd always been waiting for him (The Doctor) to return, as the raggedy Doctor dolls all over her room showed.

[Jamie McCrimmon]

I see the point you're making, I just hope they don't have her marry him after all, if she doesn't love him and was about to cheat on him but stays with him anyway, it will make her very difficult to like. And it feels out of place in Doctor Who.

[Perry Vale]

Hard to say it's out of place, until we know the full details of her and Rory's relationship.

I just noticed that the date in the reading, 26/06/2010, will be the transmission date for episode 13, assuming it doesn't get "rested" during the World Cup....

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I very much disliked the moment where Amy decides to quickly open her eyes to look at the crack, for less than a second, and even goes to the trouble of making sure she's lined up facing it to make sure she can be really quick.... then stares at it for about 10 seconds and suffers no ill effects. It reminds me of all those times in The Next Generation where they had a 50 nanosecond window between two shield cycles to quickly fire a torpedo through (or whatever), and then insist on doing it all ON MANUAL with lots of verbal orders and the whole thing takes half a minute to get done.

[Lissa]

I hope, when Amy's big secret/story/gimmick is explained and dealt with that this isn't the end of the character. It would be nice just to have someone travel with the Doctor and have fun rather than having a fixed arc that defines them.

[MinaHarker]

I just noticed that the date in the reading, 26/06/2010, will be the transmission date for episode 13, assuming it doesn't get "rested" during the World Cup....

Jason pointed that out upthread.

[MinaHarker]

I very much disliked the moment where Amy decides to quickly open her eyes to look at the crack, for less than a second, and even goes to the trouble of making sure she's lined up facing it to make sure she can be really quick.... then stares at it for about 10 seconds and suffers no ill effects. It reminds me of all those times in The Next Generation where they had a 50 nanosecond window between two shield cycles to quickly fire a torpedo through (or whatever), and then insist on doing it all ON MANUAL with lots of verbal orders and the whole thing takes half a minute to get done.

Agreed!

[Jon Masters]

I don't think Amy really wants to marry Rory. She's been talked into it, and agreed because there was nothing better, and now she's met this amazing bloke and realising she sort of likes him.

People do mad things like that, and it doesn't neccessarily make them bad people. I'm sure it's quite indicative of the liberal and often headstring/heart first attitude that a lot of young women have towards romance these days.

Si.

True - so stick it into Hollyoaks, or every misogynistic Hollywood movie where the female lead can think of no other way of thanking the hero for saving her life (or whatever) than by sleeping with him. (did anyone else watch Blood Work with Clint Eastwood on Friday night - stomach-churning in its predictability)

Or maybe Moff is working through his personal demons and fantasies - last week the geek being teased for being geeky by confident women, this week the non-worldly geek having a beautiful woman throwing herself at him when he hasn't got a clue it's going to happen.

DW doesn't need to do things like this to be great

Hard to say it's out of place, until we know the full details of her and Rory's relationship.

and that'd have to be one hell of a backstory

Not only had Amy almost died, she had almost ceased to exist! That would surely make you question the briefness of life.

So I'd recommend sniffing a flower, watching a sunset and enjoying a well cooked meal.

[Perry Vale]

and that'd have to be one hell of a backstory

Not really, we have most of it already. Amy's been obsessed with her "raggedy Doctor" since the age of 7, and has always been unable to commit to a relationship because of this. When the Doctor disappears for another two years, Amy slowly comes round to the fact that he probably won't return this time, so decides that the time has probably come for her to settle down with her "sort of" boyfriend. The only thing we really don't know is what their sexual relationship was, or how strong her feelings are for him.

So I'd recommend sniffing a flower, watching a sunset and enjoying a well cooked meal.

Touché. But that isn't really how humans react to that situation. If you ask people what they'd do if the world was about to end, the most common answer is to make love with someone, not sniffing a flower.