Rate and Discuss: Flesh and Stone

[SiHart]

Maybe I'm just getting a bit too media savvy, but I'm finding the wholesale lifting of elements from other things really starting to grate me - although that extends into RTDs era too.

Have you ever watched The Hinchcliffe years Mike?

Si xx

[Jamie McCrimmon]

Hard to say it's out of place, until we know the full details of her and Rory's relationship.

Fair enough, I'll certainly wait and see what happens. Somehow the fate of the Universe depends on Amy marrying the poor bloke she was about to cheat on, or something. I won't say it truly feels out of place in Who until I see how it pans out, but at the moment I'm not enjoying the relationship issues aspect. Like Jon says, it belongs in Hollyoaks. But I'll shut up and see where it's going.

[Si Hunt]

When she counted down, she seemed to say a number around every minute (certainly no MORE frequently) but only got to five. So by that logic she had at least five minutes left when she shut her eyes, and it's perfectly reasonable that she was able to open them for ten seconds to look at the crack. The only mystery was why the Doctor seemed to think she had got less than a second left, unless he just thought the story was flagging and wanted to drum up a bit of tension.

Si.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Nah she got down to 3 or 2 didn't she? You're probably right that the "more than a second" estimate was rather over-cautious, but she definitely seemed to believe it herself, and planned to only quickly open her eyes, so it's still stupid that she didn't. You could argue that the site of the crack from her childhood shocked her into continuing to stare, but then that was surely what she expected to see anyway, or she wouldn't have so desperately wanted to look in the first place.

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm pretty sure she got to 4, maybe 3, but I had the feeling the numbers were coming a bit quicker each time.

I do think that the one thing which will probably get a bit 'wearying' on repeated viewings is that in fact, the Doctor could have helped River fix the teleport to save Amy rather than do all that dramatic, edge-of-the-seat, stuff. Last night I was engrossed in the whole thing, but when you know it's coming then it just seems a bit, "Nah, we're fed up with this Amy bit now, let's get her to the flightdeck".

BTW, having avoided spoilers like the plague I really don't know, but... near the end of The Eleventh Hour, there's that momentary shot of Amelia sat on her suitcase, suddenly hearing the TARDIS noise, as if it's about to return for her (which obviously, as far as we know, it never did). Yesterday the Doctor said, "Remember what I told you when you were seven..." I'm theorising that for some reason, the Doctor has (had to?) gone back into Amy's timeline so that he did return to her when she was seven, which presumably makes the 'version' he's got travelling with him some kind of paradox. So maybe when we get to the big finale and the reveal of what's causing the cracks we'll discover that, like those pesky 22nd century guerillas, he did it himself!!!

Or not.

[FlyingBeastie]

I loved it! Hard to believe this was Matt's first episode shot!

Everything was fantastic, even River Song, who I have to admit I'm not a massive fan of.

Can't go on any longer since I'll pretty much just be talking compliments, but I just have to ask:

Anyone else notice that Moffat is essentially erasing whatever he thought was crap from RTD's series? I mean, I remember it wasn't but a few weeks ago when I brought up the whole "Cyber-King" issue with my brother to which he said, "It was Christmas Eve in Victorian London, everyone was probably drunk so they just kinda forgot about it" And I said, "That's a sh*t excuse!"

So, I'm kind of happy that Moffat is rebooting some of the open-ended issues the series had before. (And here's hoping he reinvents the Cybermen too!!)

As for the Tardis' brakes joke. . . what brakes joke? Hmm, is that a crack on my wall? Never noticed that before, I'm gonna go check it out- I'll be right back

[Awesome Wells]

Is it me, or was Amy's bedroom the most realistic ever seen on telly? Usually, bedrooms look the least realistic of all rooms on telly, but hers really smacked of realism. Maybe it just looked like ones I've been in. Or maybe I was just wishing I'd been in hers. <sigh>

[Si Hunt]

Someone finds it funny:

Graham Norton has poked fun at the BBC after its "mistake" at the climax of last week's Doctor Who.

It was reported last week that fans of the sci-fi drama were furious at the appearance of a cartoon Graham Norton dancing on the screen in the final moments of the episode, to plug Over The Rainbow.

According to The Sun, the flamboyant presenter makes a 'hilarious' parody of the situation on Monday's edition of The Graham Norton Show by having a Dalek blowing his animated face off.

The Graham Norton Show, which features Karen Gillan, continues on Monday at 10.50pm.

I forgive him for giving Gillen the chance to do some promo. And I'm sure his parody will indeed be "hilarious", like all his jaunty lovable light entertainment programming.

Si.

[Awesome Wells]

BTW, having avoided spoilers like the plague I really don't know, but... near the end of The Eleventh Hour, there's that momentary shot of Amelia sat on her suitcase, suddenly hearing the TARDIS noise, as if it's about to return for her (which obviously, as far as we know, it never did). Yesterday the Doctor said, "Remember what I told you when you were seven..." I'm theorising that for some reason, the Doctor has (had to?) gone back into Amy's timeline so that he did return to her when she was seven, which presumably makes the 'version' he's got travelling with him some kind of paradox. So maybe when we get to the big finale and the reveal of what's causing the cracks we'll discover that, like those pesky 22nd century guerillas, he did it himself!!!

Or not.

Add this to the cuffs incident that Pip refers to, and it makes you wonder; but I'm still - just about - thinking that what he told her when she was seven refers to something he said in episode one that we saw (can't think what, off-hand), that the young Amy/groaning TARDIS was just a shot of her with the TARDIS arriving in 'old' Amy's time (i.e. after her months of waiting for the Doc to come back a second time) and the the cuffs thing was just a cock up.

Or maybe it wasn't. This is Moffat's Who we're talking about, isn't it? Hmmm...

[FlyingBeastie]

Omigosh, and the ending with her literally about to maul the Doctor- CLASSIC!

Let's face it, if it was Ten he wouldn'tve minded if she was supposed to get married in the morning

Also, this episode dispels everyone else's assumptions that Leadworth isn't a real town or that it wasn't in present day 2010

Oh, what he told her when she was seven was "Everything's going to be fine", remember? He disregarded it though cos' it wasn't true.

[Alex]

Another fantastic episode, I rated it 8/10 as I never give 10's, and 9's all but perfection. The only thing that bothered me was how Amy was saved by the transporter and the way the angels were dispatched, I'd have preferred for the Doctor to actually have done something, especially when it comes to the latter.

Other than that it was all top stuff though, it looked amazing (Adam Smith's shaping up to be one of the best Who directors ever), and I loved how dense the episode was, dealing with not only the threat of the Angels, but also the crack in time, how Amy is linked to it, and all of River's ongoing storyline as well.

Most of the parts that I love have already been pointed out, but I thought the final scene with Father Octavian was especially touching, fleshing out the character well and transforming him in to someone we ended up having a world of sympathy for.

As for the snogging thing, it doesn't bother me in the slightest personally, and I love the way Amy threw herself on the bed and basically begged for it! That said, I was glad the Doctor rejected her in the way that he did, it wouldn't have felt right for Doc 11 to shag her senseless. Though I'm sure Tennant would have...

[Jason Thompson]

Re: the countdown, it wasn't a literal countdown. The Angels did it to make everyone afraid, not as a real indication of time. The Doctor's assessment of Amy having a second left was based on a mediscanner and his sonic screwdriver, so would be more likely to be an accurate assessment.

I did like 'oh yes, because if we lie to her she'll magically get better!'

I agree it would have been nicer if the Doctor had actually done something at the end. He could have helped River fix the teleport, he could have shut off the gravity himself to tip the Angesl into the crack.

[Si Hunt]

Re: the countdown, it wasn't a literal countdown. The Angels did it to make everyone afraid, not as a real indication of time.

Was there any evidence for this on screen?

I did like the way they did her teleport - keeping the camera on her and then everything around her changed.

On the other hand, I thought it was weird how, at the start of the episode, we didn't actually see the cliffhanger resolution! Anyone else think that was odd. They were just suddenly somewhere else. Was it to save cash?

Si.

[Perry Vale]

Was there any evidence for this on screen?

Yes, Angel Bob says that they're doing it to make Amy scared. He makes no mention of it being anything to with how long she had.

On the other hand, I thought it was weird how, at the start of the episode, we didn't actually see the cliffhanger resolution! Anyone else think that was odd. They were just suddenly somewhere else. Was it to save cash?

I didn't find it odd in the slightest, as the whole point of the resolution was that the lights had to be turned out to make it happen (by shooting the gravity globe). In the real world, it obviously aids the budget too.

[FlyingBeastie]

Essentially when they jumped the gravity of the ship pulled them towards it. Hence they blacked out for a while since they all just crushed their skulls against a space hull!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Did anyone else wonder if the Moff had listened to 'Echoes of the Protii' when some characters disappeared and the remaining ones suddenly had no memory of them??? The whole 'time un-writing' stuff could have come straight from Hart and Hunt!!!!

[Jason Thompson]

Was there any evidence for this on screen?

Yes. The Doctor asked Angel Bob why they were making her count and Bob said 'to make her afraid'. Doesn't get much more conlcusive than that, evidence-wise.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

BTW, having avoided spoilers like the plague I really don't know, but... near the end of The Eleventh Hour, there's that momentary shot of Amelia sat on her suitcase, suddenly hearing the TARDIS noise, as if it's about to return for her (which obviously, as far as we know, it never did). Yesterday the Doctor said, "Remember what I told you when you were seven..." I'm theorising that for some reason, the Doctor has (had to?) gone back into Amy's timeline so that he did return to her when she was seven, which presumably makes the 'version' he's got travelling with him some kind of paradox. So maybe when we get to the big finale and the reveal of what's causing the cracks we'll discover that, like those pesky 22nd century guerillas, he did it himself!!!

Or not.

I just rewatched that bit, having been a bit confused by it at the time myself, but on rewatching it looks as if it's just meant to be a dream "old" Amy is having of sitting in her garden as a child waiting, she hears the sound of the TARDIS, and then she wakes up in bed to realise it's real, and runs outside... etc.

BUT. I did also spot earlier in the episode, as the camera leaves young Amy sat in the garden waiting the first time we see it, there is a shot of a silhoutted figure running through the house. It's clearly not the "Prisoner 42" alien or whatever it was called, as it's humanoid. Maybe it's somehow meant to be a shot suggesting the passage of time in some way, but it comes before the crossfade on the clock face shot. Might be something weird going on there... or maybe it is just the alien in human form, but it has no real reason to be in human form then as no-one is watching it at the time.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I just noticed that the date in the reading, 26/06/2010, will be the transmission date for episode 13, assuming it doesn't get "rested" during the World Cup....

Course when England gets knocked out of the World Cup, it will be the end of the world!!!

Except for viewers in Scotland.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I did put in a reply. But I don't want to seem to be spoiling an episode others really have enjoyed, so pulled it ...

[Si Hunt]

Yes. The Doctor asked Angel Bob why they were making her count and Bob said 'to make her afraid'.

But at the risk of dragging on a thread that doesn't really matter, surely that was just why she was counting out loud? Doesn't mean the countdown wasn't a genuine one...

I did put in a reply. But I don't want to seem to be spoiling an episode others really have enjoyed, so pulled it ...

Can I just say, no-one should feel afraid of posting positive OR negative comments here, all are welcome. I for one would welcome knowing what you didn't like about it - heck, no-one held back after "Victory of the Daleks" was on!

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

But at the risk of dragging on a thread that doesn't really matter, surely that was just why she was counting out loud? Doesn't mean the countdown wasn't a genuine one...

No, but it also doesn't mean it was. I'll say again, the Doctor's estimate of her time left came from scans from two different instruments. If you had a person counting down out loud and a stopwatch counting down, which would you take as the more accurate?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Can I just say, no-one should feel afraid of posting positive OR negative comments here, all are welcome. I for one would welcome knowing what you didn't like about it

Well it's not so much that. I just am annoyed I didn't like it as much as everyone - I know I probably just don't see some things in the same way, and I don't like the idea of just being to negatively nit-picky.

One big issue for me though. The reuse of visual elements which have been done in other films is something which just really annoys me and me alone. It's the kind of equivalent of one moment you're watching Doctor Who, then your wife comes in and changes channels on you. And for a moment you're watching the film on ITV, before switching back again.

Most people of course don't even notice or mind, but for me it's kind of particularly distracting. Maybe I just need to watch more drunk!

[MinaHarker]

I just rewatched that bit, having been a bit confused by it at the time myself, but on rewatching it looks as if it's just meant to be a dream "old" Amy is having of sitting in her garden as a child waiting, she hears the sound of the TARDIS, and then she wakes up in bed to realise it's real, and runs outside... etc.

Yeah, Jason said that when we talked about it the other night. I don't know.

[FlyingBeastie]

Ah, I loved it when you actually started seeing the Angels move- quite impressive and creepy

By the way, the special effects and production for this series are coming in at a solid 10 for me. While Prisoner Zero was a bit dodgy, I've felt the over all look of the show has really improved and looks a lot more expensive, mysterious, and just a lot more like a proper sci-fi show. I mean, is it just me or was RTD's era a bit too bright and kitchy most of the time? And yes, Adam Smith is doing a hell of a job!