Thread: Troy Davis executed in Georgia
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22nd Sep 2011, 8:28 AM #1
Troy Davis executed in Georgia
Originally Posted by BBC News
The point is: innocent or guilty, Davis shouldn't have been killed by the state; the scumbag supremacist Brewer shouldn't have been killed by the state, even though he clearly was guilty; nobody should. In a supposedly civilised democracy, the execution of citizens is barbaric and monstrous.
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22nd Sep 2011, 8:46 AM #2
I kind of hate this subject - I've always been very anti-execution.
But then again I do believe for murder, the sentence should often be life, and not just 10-20 years.Remember, just because Davros is dead doesn't mean the Dalek menace has been contained ......
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22nd Sep 2011, 12:50 PM #3
I absolutely agree. As a resident of the State of Georgia, I find this to be absolutely abhorrent.
Is it ever right to take someone's life? I don't think so. Not even in the most clear-cut cases - and this certainly wasn't one of them.
As both Dave and Mike have said, whether Davis was guilty or not, the death penalty isn't right.
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22nd Sep 2011, 11:01 PM #4
I think that's part of the problem. I think there have been too many times when people have been executed on the basis of very dubious evidence, just to be found innocent later on. You can't then give them back their life.
At the same time I say that, I do feel people who have committed murder have crossed a very serious line, and should not really be released, probably ever, back into society.Remember, just because Davros is dead doesn't mean the Dalek menace has been contained ......
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23rd Sep 2011, 1:29 AM #5
A sad day for many Americans.
I tend to have a fairly hard line on murder and violent crime, but i've never advocated the death penalty. And for it to be implimented in a case so riddled with holes, is a genuine crime in itself.
As Amnesty International reminds us - American prisons are among the most inhumane in the world. Some, especially in Colorado, are strange privatised, automated, netherworlds in which prisoners are removed from human contact and are under 24-hour electronic surveillance in these ideological death camps.
To me, Troy Davis' own message to those who supported him speaks volumes:
"The struggle for justice doesn't end with me. This struggle is for all the Troy Davises who came before me and all the ones who will come after me. I'm in good spirits and I'm prayerful and at peace."
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23rd Sep 2011, 2:59 PM #6
The most absurd thing about the death penalty in the US is that it takes so long to implement. Troy Davis has already served 20 years, about as much time in prison as a person convicted of a similar crime would in this country. But whereas our convict would be possibly released on parole or whatever depending on nature of the crime and his conduct in prison, in the US he gets a life imprisonment sentence and then gets killed at the end of it.
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23rd Sep 2011, 5:07 PM #7
The question to ask is 'Will this guy kill anybody else if we let him out?'. I think in this case, the answer is 'No chance in hell.'
Protecting society is the only possible reason to justify the death penalty; revenge isn't really acceptable as a motive in any civilisation. If he's not going to harm anyone, then the sentence should never be the termination of his life.
Being a complete bloody liberal, I believe that no-one is beyond redemption - but prison is a pretty crappy way to reform someone's character. It doesn't work that brilliantly as a deterrent either, most people who commit crimes don't think they're going to get caught.
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24th Sep 2011, 2:22 PM #8
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24th Sep 2011, 2:48 PM #9
You disagree?
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24th Sep 2011, 3:10 PM #10
I disagree in general with the sentiment that "in a democracy, everything would be done the way I like it". It seems to misunderstand the concept of democracy somewhat. And given that, whenever this debate pops up, there never seems to be any problem in finding supporters for the death penalty, I certainly would feel on shaky ground if I confidently stated that it had no part in a democratic society. Obviously I don't know the real numbers, but it seems to me it's more than just a very vocal minority. Democracy means all the people who hold views you disagree with, or even find abhorrent, have a voice as loud as yours.
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24th Sep 2011, 4:59 PM #11
So do I. I hope, if you're implying that this is somehow my view, you can provide an example of me saying so.
This is patently ridiculous. Are you stating that in a democracy, we should have the death penalty for those who want it and abolish it for those who don't?
It means allowing everyone a voice within the law; it doesn't mean trying to find room for things that are morally or legally wrong. Some people believe that rape, robbery, murder and racial hatred are acceptable; should they be allowed a voice, or laws passed to incorporate their views, simply because we live in a democratic society? Obviously not - yet this seems to be what you're arguing.
You haven't answered my question yet, either. Do you or do you not think that the death penalty has no place within a democratic society?
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24th Sep 2011, 5:21 PM #12
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24th Sep 2011, 6:12 PM #13
No... I am not saying that, particularly since we can't abolish it since we don't have it. I'm saying that there seems to be a large number of people who would be quite happy to have a death penalty. Whether or not it has a place in a democratic society depends on just how large that number of people is. As I said, I don't know how large that number is, but it seems more than just a vocal minority.
I would address the first part where you're suggesting I was putting words in your mouth, but since you seem to have put ten times as many words in my mouth I don't think I will
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24th Sep 2011, 6:13 PM #14
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27th Sep 2011, 6:34 PM #15
There's an excellent article by Anglican blogger Cranmer on the various rights and wrongs of the death penalty, with particular reference to the Troy Davis case. It can be read here: http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.c...o-take-my.html
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27th Sep 2011, 9:26 PM #16Close embrace
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What would being on Death Row for 20 years do to a person mentally and physically? And why such a long time span? Is there a back log?
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27th Sep 2011, 9:30 PM #17
The length of time that one is on death row is normally due to the extremely lengthy and complicated appeals process. Providing the convict decides to appeal, of course.
Perhaps it is unsurprising to know that 25% of people on death row in the USA die of natural causes before they are executed.
Personally, I believe that Troy Davis was guilty. But, I don't think that the death penalty is right, regardless of the circumstances.
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28th Sep 2011, 1:49 PM #18Whether or not it has a place in a democratic society
Death sentences are basically the way of the animal. They might have been useful when mankind lived in tribes and there was not enough manpower to incacerate those who were dangerous to society. In the modern day, I think we can do better than murder.
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28th Sep 2011, 6:30 PM #19
I still maintain that that's a matter of opinion, not a universal truth.
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28th Sep 2011, 6:35 PM #20
I agree with Zbigniev - I don't personally support the death penalty. However, one thing I learnt in academic writing for a subject like history is that in general, you shouldn't cast moral judgement on such things.
After all, how can one define civilised society? Many would say that the Ancient Greeks were "civilised", yet they certainly had the death penalty - Socrates was sentenced to death. Many would describe the Ancient Romans as civilized -yet, these were the same people who rampaged across Europe, their mission statement was "to conquer and civilize".
Definitions of civilization change not only with time, but with geographic location, too.
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28th Sep 2011, 6:48 PM #21
Perhaps it's more that it's an ideal we should aspire to?
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28th Sep 2011, 9:26 PM #22
Ancient Greece and Rome may have been considered civilised in comparison with what preceded them, but nobody - I'm sure - looks back and holds them up as models of civilised society in comparison with what came after.
Originally Posted by Some internet dictionary
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28th Sep 2011, 9:39 PM #23
All of those things (culture, morality and... er... socialness) are subjective concepts that evolve over time though. I can't see what's so inherently immoral about "do unto others as you would have done to yourself" though, which is the corollary of "an eye for an eye". To some eyes it may seem barbaric and no better than "revenge", to other eyes it may seem the purest form of justice that could possibly be. I find it hard to see either point of view as so obviously wrong that either side can legitimately claim outright superiority without even engaging in an argument.
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28th Sep 2011, 10:59 PM #24
A civilised society of course is one with good PR. The Greeks and Romans have it - you just skim over the fact they were societies built on "civilised" slavery.
That said it does seem a bit that civilisation is a yardstick of some sorts. When you compare the societies who came after the fall of the Roman civilisation with that of Rome, it does seem more backwardsRemember, just because Davros is dead doesn't mean the Dalek menace has been contained ......
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29th Sep 2011, 10:58 AM #25
I agree with Zbigniev, largely. I don't support the death penalty, but there is such a wide variety of views on the issue that it is hard to say 'it's uncivilised'.
Many people think terminating the life of someone is wrong under any circumstances. Many people think that someone who has done something so unspeakable as murder or rape or child abuse or whatever no longer deserves to live. Others think that execution is an 'easy way out', because they're done humanely so the convicted have not had to suffer the way their victims did. Still others compain that the treatement paedophiles and murders get in some prisons violates their human rights, so we should lock them up but treat them nicely. And all of those views come from the population of what we would describe as a 'civilised' society, so how do we decide what is the 'civilised' way to deal with criminals?
I don't think the death penalty is a good thing, not so much because I don't think execution is morally right, but largely because a) the judicial system is run by people who make mistakes, and an execution is a rather difficult mistake to rectify, and b) because it clearly is not a deterrent, judging by the crime rates in places that use it.
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